Eco Hacker Farm Monthly Meeting

Thursday 14th December 2017 20:30 - 00:00

Aimee, Franz, Petteri

1. Meetings for 2018

  • Should we keep a monthly public meeting for EHF? Dates have already been updated on the wiki but they can be changed
Franz: I think we should leave the dates like it is, I don’t see a reason for changing it. That we skipped some meetings doesn’t mean that it should be still once a month.
Aimee: I think we should monitor this, if we skip them anyway we should change to once every 2 or 3 months
Franz: yes we can evaluate that again later/the next time
Aimee: can we move the meeting time to 9pm? So that we can finish dinner in good time before the meeting?
Franz: I don’t think that will change that, we have dinner all the time from 18:00 to 22:00, better preparation of that food on these days is imo a better solution
Aimee: but I warned them in advance today and still we were late…
Franz: yes, and your point is?
Aimee: the point is we shouldn’t be late to a public meeting, maybe next time I take care of the cooking
Franz: We could also say we don’t attend to dinner when it’s too late. Also I don’t think we should change everything to our time table. How about a meeting at 4:00 in the morning?
Aimee: at 4am I am asleep, I think we should stop the discussion here tbh, we leave it for now but if we are late again we should consider changing it
Franz: or change our behaviour…

Action points: monitor frequency of held meetings before deciding whether to change this

  • Should we change how we keep the minutes ie googledocs?
Franz: yes I would like that, we have the meeting notes written in some tools (e.g. google docs, etherpad) and put it directly into the wiki
Aimee:the only problem is the wiki markup because we don’t use this in the google docs (we could try but it’s not easy)
Franz: I think it’s not hard though either, especially not if there are always people who can change the markup while reading
Aimee:we can see how easy or difficult it is at the next meeting

Action points: use markup to assess how easy it is to do so at the next meeting

2. Improving engagement process

  • Set up a mailing list for members
Franz: I’ll do that.
Aimee:what should this be?….,,,
Franz: how about ; I don’t like mailinglist (to long) and ehfnews (fox news similarity), news is ok .. but i would prefer something more special
Aimee:it doesn't have to be special… its functional and does what it says on the tin, people can easily remember it, I dont like update because it could be anything
Franz: ,b@, listen@, follow@, eyes@,
Aimee:be is not descriptive enough, it should be clear what it is, we shouldn’t really waste a lot of time on this… news is quick and easy
Franz: because quick and easy is good …
Aimee:it is the name of a mailing list… not your first born child
Franz: but it is a child :P
Aimee:sooo… malcolm@…. Or back to mailinglist or news or subscription (but I don’t like this), info, announcements,
Franz:data@, leak@, tell@
Aimee:members… (God help me please)
Franz: Wait a moment? What is it for? For communication or is it a newsletter? Because mailing list can mean different.
Aimee:it is for informing people that are interested (at the moment we define all these as members) about news and meetings to be held etc. This is for EHF not for the local based projects those have a different mailing list, also powerplant for example but off topic should have its own mailing list.
Franz: but pp is for example for a different use case, then informing. If you want a newsletter then we can call it story@,
Aimee: please lets stick to this topic and discuss pp on the meeting on monday… newsletter? I would like it to be obvious what it is
Franz: you didn’t define it before. I’m still not happy with news and I would like to find a nicer name.
Aimee: then we can start a document, make a list and we can vote, it shouldn’t take any more time in this meeting
Franz: I agree, that is a good solution. When it’s not priority, than it should be maybe not discussed next time here and/or lowered in priority (not the second point) Thank you.

Action point: make a list of names suitable for the EHF news mailing list Follow up: was chosen and implemented

  • Clearly outline what are the expectations from members
Aimee: We should have a separate and dedicated meeting to this topic to discuss this in detail but I put it here so that we can think about it in the meantime and perhaps bring proposals to the table. Ie we didn't start the discussion from scratch. If you agree would the 21st December at 9pm be good? Or should we leave it until January?
Franz: Then why is this point not named in this way? But I can agree that we can discuss that on a later point. January is better. We have too much stuff to do in December. A date at the end of January.
Aimee: 25th January then? 9pm?
Franz: agreed.

Action point: prepare to discuss membership definition for meeting to be held 25th January 9pm, invite public to attend, update wiki, promote on sm etc. same as monthly meeting. Aimee to do the wiki and scheduling, all to do the draft doc for proposal at the meeting

3. Management of Donations

  • Discuss allocation of funding to cover costs incurred in 2016/2017
Franz: can you reference a link to expenses from these years?
Aimee: no because this is not a public document yet, see point d below… however I can give you some info now. 2016 I have 72 eur… and nothing for 2017 - this is not correct however I think we are missing some records which we should complete. Domain and Server are about 50 eur this is an annual expense? We should keep at least 100 eur per year for EHF in the donation pot, this should be enough to cover the annual costs and save for when we want to upgrade something. The rest we can discuss for allocation to local and sub projects.
Franz: The Server cost are still not right, they are that low because we pay below the “be nice”-price which is around 15€ per month.
Aimee: OK then we should put aside 225eur, this covers the be nice server price + domain and a little extra for saving for a rainy day.
Franz: sorry the price is between 5-10€ but i would like to spend 10€ per month: 120€ per year
Aimee: so the new pot to set aside would be 165eur per year. From the pot you should also decide now whether you want to be reimbursed for these expenses already incurred in 2016 and 2017 or whether these should be written off as a donation. You don’t have to answer now but you should give me an answer before the end of the year. My contribution was 23eur and I will write it off as a donation. Please let me have the info for 2017 when you can :-) we should move on to the next point…
Franz: Ah, ok. I don’t want the loan back immediately. But I don’t want to give it as a donation at the moment.
Aimee: This is fine I will account for it accordingly, on the premise that if there are insufficient funds for the basic costs the project cannot pay back this loan on demand, same as usual.
Franz: so at the moment we won’t cover the cost from 2016/17 right?
Aimee: No because my part is a donation and yours is a loan that doesn*t have to be repaid now it was important to establish this before we go on to the next point… basic costs for 2018 should be 165eu which includes all costs + savings
Franz: the conclusion is: NO we don’t cover the cost yet
Aimee: ok so we agree to save 165eur for 2018 costs?
Franz: yes
Aimee: do we agree to sell bitcoins to cover the costs as they come up?
Franz: I don’t agree, we should pay with bitcoins
Aimee: If that's possible then it's ok with me to pay with bitcoins
Franz: I would rather give the bitcoins to members/friends of the project(s) then sell them on the market
Aimee: are the providers we use members or friends..-????
Franz: no but the bills are paid by members
Aimee: as long as we are selling at market rate then I am fine with that also
Franz: average day price
Aimee: average day price… or closing price of the day before on kraken (its popular enough for a fair rate)
Franz: why make it dependent on kraken? I don’t think that the agreement should be dependent on kraken only average day price should be enough
Aimee: it should be a fair market price, it is common practice in the markets to pick a price from a popular index (in this case there is no index so we use platform) but this is not important to me I only want to make sure we are putting precious EHF money to good use and not just handing it out to people just because we know them or are involved in the project
Franz: I didn’t meant that at all.
Aimee: bills should be refunded the same day that they are paid at the current market average day price of whichever platform the person is using - is that fair?
Franz: you make it to complicated.
Aimee: ok so how do you want to do it?
Franz: everyone who pays bills for the EHF can ask for a reimbursement at whatever time they want. Then we sell for a day price in the future or at that day to this person. The intention of the person should not be to get the lowest price of the bitcoin/cryptocurrency otherwise he gets the price in EURO. Also the money should not be accumulated to be paid of at once if it is a reasonable amount. The pay back should be intended fair in both directions.
Aimee: timing of pay back should be objectively that means it should be a fixed time period after the request is made for example on the last business day of the month this will ensure fairness so the price is out of control of both parties.
Franz: no i think we only have to fixate a date when it is necessary.
Aimee: I would like us to agree on the time period to be used as a guideline now so that we can write this policy and leave room for flexibility in the same note, ie if you dont like the fixed day then talk to us…. So ok to recap the discussion here… I agree that the pay back should be fair on both parties ie both parties should not get to choose the price that they use, this means that the payment cannot be made the same day as the request is made - hopefully this discourages people with profit making intent, I think we should put some distance between the request and the payout date for this same reason ie minimum 1 week. I also think that we should have an alternative for people who don’t want to wait they can be paid in euro the same day or the day after the request is made.
Franz: not guaranteed though. Only to make that clear, I don’t want to write a contract here, I want to write guidelines.
Aimee: I agree with you, it should also include that the request is subject to approval.
Franz: From request to payback should be then one week.
Aimee: agreed, I can write some blurb on this before the next meeting.

Action point: Aimee to update the accounts for EHF re the above loan agreement Action point: Aimee to write down agreed pay back terms on the website Follow up: page set up here: Administration & Finance

  • Discuss allocation of funding for powerplant
  • Discuss allocation of funding for subprojects / local projects
Aimee: Suggestions covering accomodation and food cost (eur13) for every 5 hours worked to the subproject / individual when the individual is paid for already by a local project ie someone is volunteering at Kuckucksmuehle and spends some of the allocated time paid for by Kuckucksmuehle on pp work. This should be subject to how much funding we allocate to the local projects and subprojects for example if there is already money allocated to Kuckucksmuehle this should be taken into account and not pay double. Money for local project would help to cover expenses for EHF that at the moment are not high for example translating pages and adding more content to the general wiki pages (non local)
Franz: This is a nice model but I think also that we decide first how much money we distribute to the project. Advertisement could be more effective from EHF/pp perspective.
Aimee: so let’s start at the beginning how much % of the funds available in the pot should be allocated / reserved for local and subprojects? This should be after the basic costs are covered of course. I think c. 25% each would be a good number or we take the number of local + subproject and divide equally ie this would be 50% for each Kuckucksmuehle and pp at this time, this could be revised when we have more projects of course
Franz: Yes I think at the moment we make a temporary decision for that ~ 25% EHF (infrastructure, etc.) and ~ 75% to emburse underlying projects.
Aimee: it should be clear that what I meant is that first of all the EHF costs are covered . we cannot run the project without a website and server… so the allocation % are after basic costs of 165 eur per year.
Franz: Then I think making decision percentage wise doesn’t make so much sense. Because if you want you can create a lot of cost for EHF anyway. If you don’t limit the amount to a percentage number someone (evil) could create EHF cost of 100% of the donations.
Aimee: the donation is not a fixed number this means that next year it could be less than what we need to cover the basic 165eur… yes someone could create costs that are higher but these have to be approved by the members? - yet to be defined….how these decisions are taken but we wouldn’t let someone evil take over anyway… mutiny…
Franz: now we don’t ;) … Ok. After the basic cost are covered that should be targeted at 25% of the donation ;) we distribute the other 75% to underlying projects. Let’s reference them now as 100% of the (left over) money. So I want to say all the other money we don’t need in EHF should go to underlying projects. Software or local projects. Or we can think about a different model.
Aimee: yes now we were discussing the % allocation of that… so for EHF projects such as pp how much % ? … 50% and the rest to local projects? Or 25% to subprojects, 25% marketing, 25% local projects and the rest of 25% for additional EHF costs ie sometimes local projects do extra work for EHF that could be reimbursed (translation etc?)
Franz: What about 25% for investments/credits? The projects can loan money from EHF. 75% goes to the project and I think software projects can cost the same as local projects, so I don’t see the difference to make them not equal. THat means 25% pot held by EHF 75% /(by number of projects) for each project. That means Kum and PP would get 37.5% each.
Aimee: Local projects should not have any more additional loans this is not a good model. These monies have been donated to EHF general pot that means also that they should be used for the subprojects and not used as a loan ie to be repaid back to EHF: They should earn the money by working on the projects. Ie hours spent on pp or local projects in line with the ideals of EHF. Reducing the costs of the local projects is much better than increasing them with a burden of a loan. I am fine with the % calculation. Also you are again using the 25% this is after basic costs I am assuming…
Franz: If a project takes a loan or not is there decision, but it would be better if they take a loan to support EHF instead of banks.
Aimee: Its an interest free loan… ?? doesn’t support EHF, EHF should support the local projects with the extra money that is not needed and in return when EHF has no money to pay the basic costs (could happen= they should think about returning the favour.
Franz: Which is more or less a loan without guarantee.
Aimee: its called the gift economy… I mean the local project should make a request for the money and detail why the money is needed and provide receipts or documentation for this cost. We don’t just give money out.
Franz: OK 25% is not loan is on request.
Aimee: so we agree not a loan and on request with documentation etc and 25%…so I lost track how much is for powerplant?…. The breakdown of how this is spent should be discussed at the next meeting of pp.
Franz: We should also upgrade the wiki to make software projects equal to local projects 37.5% for the software project (pp) 37.5 for the local project (Kum), 25% on request. In general 25% on request and 75%/(number of projects) for each projects. To Sum everything up: All the donations EHF gets are first used to cover the cost of EHF, after that 25% is put in a pot where projects can request money from and 75% gets distributed equally to the projects.
Franz: NOW BACK TO THE BEGINNING of this point. Local projects should be supported when they work on EHF projects for example with paying their day cost for digital nomads. This can have different forms but should be similar in the amount of the ideas above. We can’t afford paying common hour prices for developers yet.
Aimee: also should be clear that this is paid to the local project only upon request which is subject to approval, available funding and to the maximum allowed for that project (within the 25%)
Franz: I think this money can come from the software project itself too. Only to make that clear. If software projects support local projects that would be really ideal.
Aimee: ok so subject also to funding availability and EHF approval from the software project also

Action point: Aimee to update the wiki re software projects equality status to local projects and info on how donations are allocated as agreed above

Action point: At the next pp meeting talk about use of funds allocated from EHF

  • Discuss publication of accounts summary similar to what we have to Kuckucksmuehle
Franz: We should have it.
Aimee: agreed, I can put this together quite quickly

Action point: Aimee to update the wiki with account summary for 2016 / 2017

4. Projects (overview):

  • Powerplant:
    • Update on the development status - more in detail discussions should be left to the weekly powerplant meeting
Aimee: Draft application for GSOC in progress
Franz: I’m into coding now and there's a good chance we finish the MPV till end of december.
Petteri:I wrote GSOC specs for the Weather API project,
  * update on financial / funding status

Aimee: how much is in the wallet?
Franz: everyone can see it here: 0.0589 Bitcoin
Aimee:at the current price thats c. 800eur
Aimee: in the meantime I have been also doing some more research on how to get to more funding from other programs similar to GSOC

  • Offsetting co2 emissions / #foodisfree project - project on hold / low priority

More detailed information about the projects should be added onto the Research page & start a new Projects page.

Aimee: No news on this

5. 3rd party projects

* Anything to add to Outreach ??

Aimee: Nothing to add but would like to visit traumschule in the new year
Aimee: Ah I almost forgot, we should also work on a presentation for the CCC, to present EHF and powerplant.

6. Questions / suggestions / ideas from attendees

* Anything new on the bank of ideas page ?? more info needs to be added for ideas for locations (process)

Aimee: this is what was on the page that is still pending for discussion
Homeless shelter: Find out how they could participate and give them a shelter, Maybe also for refugees? Use products/services to finance the place / their stay - date added on this list: 13/04/2017 (example:
Aimee: I think this topic is more suited for local project level discussions.
Grow mushrooms
Aimee: I think this topic is more suited for local project level discussions.
Franz: I agree

7. Anything to add to the Glossary ??

Aimee: We should add a link to powerplant here for sure

Action item: Aimee to add powerplant on the glossary

Action Items should be added under each point

Is there an agenda item you would like us to discuss at the next meeting? Add it on the agenda for that particular meeting or send an email to - if you have a suggestion or idea please add it on the wiki here

  • team_meetings/14th_december_2017.txt
  • Last modified: 2017/12/20 15:17
  • by aimeejulia